Austin Lugo: Before we get started today, next week we are going be watching Batman Returns. I wanted to pick something a little Christmasy since as you are listening to this, it is almost Christmas and my favorite time of the season, so I'm pumped. I know you've seen this movie a couple of times before, Andrew. Yeah, we've talked about it on the podcast before and I've never really got around to it, so this is a good excuse to watch it.

But that's this week what we talking about, Andrew.

Andrew Harp: Lady Vengeance Park Chain, W Movie 2005, south Korean Film Director. It's got a new one coming out. Decision to leave. I'm gonna see you next weekend probably. It's gonna play at the cinema next weekend, so I check it out. I heard it's good. I heard it's really funny.

But like in the early two thousands, you know, park Chain w he had his trilogy, his uh, vengeance trilogy, which had sympathy for Mr. Vengeance old boy. And then this movie, I've not seen sympathy from Mr. Vengeance, but I know it's, I've heard it's good. And Old Boy's a great movie, of course. And then this is the last movie, which this is the second time I've seen it, I

Austin Lugo: think so in what way are these movies connected?

What makes the MI trilogy? Is it just the themes? I

Andrew Harp: think it's just like the themes. Like they're not like, okay. I don't think there's really any shared characters. No. It's just kind of like a Yeah, like a, like a very loose, the thematic connection between the three of them. And they came out, you know, one after.

Very

Austin Lugo: cool. Yeah, this film is very, I mean, from the opening shot, it has a very, uh, specific style to it. I'd never seen a film by this director before, so this was kind of my really introduction. Yeah.

Andrew Harp: Wait, you've never seen Old Boy? It's always been on the list, but, oh, I didn't know you hadn't seen Old Boy.

Okay. I hadn't seen Old

Austin Lugo: Boy. I mean, I'm gonna watch it soon and I have like, I know a lot Bow Old Boy because, you know, it's very famous film, so I'm very aware. Yeah. Ubiquitous, ubiquitous movie. I'm very aware of the film Old Boy, and like I've seen a lot of scenes from the film Old Boy, but I just, I don't know why I've never gotten around Old Boy, but, but now I'm, I'm gonna get to it.

I'll get to it. No, it's

Andrew Harp: a good movie. It's probably a little overrated, but it is a good movie, but, I mean, I don't know. Austin, what's the, what's the park chain? Woo. What's the park chain? Woo. What's his, uh, what's his style? What's his, uh, what's his calling? What do you gather? So

Austin Lugo: this is just from watching this one film.

I haven't seen his other films yet, so his other films are pretty similar. Okay. I figured it. There, there's something very, uh, specific about his films. There's something, uh, I don't know, like a mix of like Tarantino and a bit of like a early West Anderson e a lot of camera. A lot of really great editing.

He loves to do like push-ins and pullouts, especially like cutting between scenes. I don't know, there's just like something very hy about it, very stylistic about it. Like if I, you know, next time I watch one of his films, it'll be very easy to tell which one is his. Cause it's just, you can just tell, you know, it is just got, it's just got his look to.

Andrew Harp: His vibes. I think his movies also have like strains of about the same like types of stories and the way he tells his stories as well. I think he likes like movies where like people have like where he, he likes movies and stories that have like a lot of twists and turns. This one has a fair share of twists and turns.

Maybe not as much as others I've seen, but yeah, like the stories are like twisty and people have like plans and agendas that are eventually like revealed, um, that are very like convoluted and very planned out. So a lot of his movies are like that. Yeah, people taking revenge, being wronged, and then the whole movie is them like, kind of like trying to, you know, get revenge for being wronged.

But ultimately, of course, basically every movie that has ever been made about revenge. Is always, always ends with like, I feel like, yeah, every film ever made about revenge, including this one that we watched for the show. You know, there's always, you know, ends up feeling revenge. Always ends up feeling a little luke warm, I

Austin Lugo: guess.

Yeah. There's some like emptiness behind it. Yeah.

Andrew Harp: And that's, yeah, that's kind of, yeah, how a lot of his movies, uh, function, I would say. And yeah, they're just like very dramatic, very over the.

Austin Lugo: Is it typical for him to have this sort of, uh, storytelling style where it's like constantly jumping back and forth?

Or is that unique to Lady of Vengeance?

Andrew Harp: Honestly, honestly, yeah. Like from what I haven't seen like all of his movies, but from the ones that I've seen, like, yeah, that almost all of them from remembering correctly that I've seen you jump around a lot. Like that's not really. A unique thing for this film.

There's a lot of jumping around from past. This one jumps around a lot in like the first hour. There's a lot going on. And then after the first hour, it pretty much is on. Um, it's pretty much linear after that,

Austin Lugo: but there's a lot of. Backstory, I guess, you know, a lot of introductions to different characters after a while that does get a little old, like these, all these different introductions.

I mean, I like 'em, you know, I like how like, uh, you have all these different characters and you'll have these like different back stories and you get to know all these different people. But you know, after like the fourth or fifth one, it gets a little old doing another character introduction and this is how we met in prison and blah, blah, blah.

But it's a small thing. It's

Andrew Harp: a little. I think that like, uh, yeah, a part chain movie is kind of like confusing at first when you watch it, but I think like you just kind have to trust it and you kind of have to let the movie kind of like reveal itself to you over time. So like, this is like the second time I've watched the movie and there were, there were moments where I was watching it, even after seeing it before where, you know, I'd forgotten things or something like that.

And I'm just like, what the fuck is going on? You know? What's going on there? Like, I don't understand, and then I kind of have to like realize like, wait a minute, like the movie will reveal like itself to me over time. Like I kind of have to like stop, like questioning and prodding and just kind of let it open itself up to you.

And pretty much everything is, is, uh, revealed and, you know, identified by the end more or less. You know, I think as movies end satisfyingly, uh, they always end pretty sadly as well. from what I've seen.

Austin Lugo: Yeah, this is definitely a pretty, uh, tragic. Depressing film. There's not a lot of, I mean, there's some funny moments in this.

I mean, the whole subject matter is pretty, pretty tough. It's a pretty tough subject matter. I mean, I don't know when a child murder isn't tough, but this feels even more, I don't know. There's something very raw about this film. Again, maybe it's just has to do with the idea of the. Unsatisfying, uh, vengeance that occurs or, or perhaps just our, our lady vengeance herself who just seems to be in this, uh, state of, I don't know.

What would you describe her, like emotional.

Andrew Harp: She's just really pissed off, you know, like, uh, you know, basic. So basically just to kind of like jump forward, it's just, it's about this woman named Lee Gja. I'm probably not saying it right. She goes to prison for 13 years because she admitted to killing a little boy who was kidnapped for ransom.

But it's reveal, of course, later on the movie that the reason why she did that was because her like newborn baby was kidnapped and was threatened to be killed. If she didn't confess to this and then even while she was in prison, she killed someone in prison as well, which we also get the background on as well.

And yeah, so. She's very, very angry and it is, and is essentially become a husk cuz she like, has to go to prison and she's like 20. And then when she gets out, she's like in her early thirties. So she's basically like a, um, a, a husk of a person and she's completely like, hollowed out and really only seeks to, uh, Do one thing, which is to enact some kind of revenge against the guy who did this to her.

Yeah.

Austin Lugo: Her whole life seems to revolve around this one act of engines. This, this plan that's been 13 years in the making. And I do have to ask, which I don't know if you would know the answer to this. Maybe one of our listeners will answer this. This happens in, uh, memories of a Murder too. Another Korean film, they reenact the murder in front of journalists.

Is that. Just a thing that they do police officers do in Korea, cuz it feels like there's some sort of like, it's a thing,

Andrew Harp: like a cultural thing that you're missing. I don't know. That's kind of interesting. I kind of forgot about the memories of Murder thing, but I think you're right. I don't know. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't.

I don't know. You know, bang Genau, marching mo, but kind of similar. I mean, you know, they're both Korean, they have similar kind of, you know, Korean storytelling elements going

Austin Lugo: on and uh, definitely some cultural

Andrew Harp: element. But, uh, yeah, that's a good question. I'm really not sure, but yeah, it is kind of weird.

It is funny when they, like, they, they give her like a dummy to, like, she said that she put a pillow over her head. Like, why do we need to see her do it to like a mannequin? Like, we know, we know what that looks like. It's kind of weird, like, like she shows her like, like tying him up and the, the mannequin and then, yeah, it's kind of weird.

Um, in like right before she goes in, she sees like her baby and like they're just like, you know, you better do it or we'll kill your baby. It's

pretty

Austin Lugo: fucked up. But of course she only kidnapped the boys. She.

Andrew Harp: Yeah, she didn't, she

Austin Lugo: didn't commit a murder, which I think that's a great scene, um, to kind of illustrate that because of course the murderer is in the room the whole time and kind of like walks her through the whole, uh, murder process, including like pointing to his watch and it's a very, uh, well thought out scene.

And then you also

Andrew Harp: have the detective who, who is from the beginning, he feels that she isn't the murder, even though at that point it's just kind of like, We have to arrest someone. And so he's kind of like a guy that kind of like helps her kind of enact revenge. Cuz obviously he, you make a whole movie about that guy, you know, just like a guy who was unable to get the child murderer.

He's,

Austin Lugo: he's good. Yeah. I think that's something very interesting about this film is all of our characters within it have their own stories, their own like lives that they lived before this. And then, you know, part of it's just good storytelling and you know, the back stories they get with each of 'em. But there are definitely plenty of films to be made from the other characters in this film, including some of the other prisoners.

The detective, of course, I think his story is fascinating, but instead we get Lady Vengeance herself, she's. She's doing her thing and there's some fantastical elements, not necessarily to. What's actually going on, but definitely like, there's almost like dream sequences. I think the one that fucks with me the most is definitely that scene where it's like the murderer's head and he is got like the body of a, a dog or a wolf.

It's like a dream. She has, it's a fucked up scene.

Andrew Harp: I like when she's, um, with the, in the room with all of her roommates and her face glows. Almost kind of like a, like a, uh, like a deity or something like that. Yeah. It's

Austin Lugo: got like those, like old school, like, uh, from like one of those Renaissance paintings, right?

How their like faces have like the spikes or whatever.

Andrew Harp: Yeah, she's like a, she's a, she's like the Madonna or whatever, like Yeah, .

Austin Lugo: Yeah. There's some interesting uses of CGI and in a good way, like it's not, especially for film made in 2005, like it's not noticeable or even if it's noticeable, it all like plays well into the film.

Like that scene where they cut from, I think it's a prison scene and then she like opens the door, you know what I'm talking about? Like opens the door and like the scene is like playing on the door almost, and it kind. It's a weird moment, but it's cool. There's a lot of the transitions are very, uh, unique.

There's a lot of fades. He's really into the, the fade, , the fades, but it

Andrew Harp: works. Sometimes I think the fades are a little inappropriate. Like there's that one scene where for no reason, it doesn't even make any sense. They're able to get the. So they get the guy and they get him on the ground and they knock him out.

And she just starts like cutting his hair very like fervently for some reason. And then she's, and she's like, she's fucking going at it. And she's freaking out and she kinda like, looks at the camera with like her wide eyes and then it fades out. It's like, bro, just like, hold on it for a minute. Like, you don't have to fade out of that.

That didn't seem like a good, like fade in my opinion, but that's a good scene anyway. Of, of her like, like cutting his hair for some reason.

Austin Lugo: No, you're right. The fades in. There's a lot of fades and sometimes it feels a little, but

Andrew Harp: sometimes the transitions are amazing. Like, uh, that one scene where the, where the, um, some parents are gonna like, you know, they're gonna fuck up the guy and it's like at the door and it shows them, and then it like moves over to the guy and the parents are like, they're magically teleported to him.

You know what I

Austin Lugo: mean? Yeah, definitely. You know, the editing is, Is on point in this. And I love how every time Lady Vengeance herself meets one of her past characters. Of course they introduce themselves, but like one of the first things they always say is How Lady Vengeance just isn't the same anymore.

You know, she's, she's somehow changed, which, well,

Andrew Harp: I think she's like always been that

Austin Lugo: way or, yeah, like she's just been like hiding it, I guess. Like, like it's always been there. Cause like they were all in prison together.

Andrew Harp: So that's basically like, kind of like what happens, like in the first hour of the movie is that she's in prison and she has a plan to enact revenge.

So while she's in prison, she is going to basically make all these friends so that everybody has to owe her favors and stuff so that they all, their unique abilities will aid her in her quest to uh, just, you know, dome this guy. So she like makes friends with a person whose husband can make guns. She makes friends with someone who ends up like dating the killer to get closer to him.

Uh, she helps someone who, uh, I think helps her get a job right at the bakery. Right. And like you said, there's a lot of introductions of that, of where they meet and then, then she helps them and they're like, oh, she's so nice and da, da da, da. You know, a lot of that going on.

Austin Lugo: It has some very heist like elements to.

Like it's introducing some sort of grand he in which, okay, here's, here's the plan, here's how we're gonna do this. And you're bringing all these, you know, unique characters and they got unique talents and they're all coming together for, for this one thing, which. It's a very intriguing first half, but it seems as if that kind of heist element is, I wouldn't say it's abandoned in the second half, but maybe it's just because like the heist doesn't necessarily go, I think the

Andrew Harp: movie should be a little longer than it is.

What would you like to be longer? Just, I think all the prison stuff should be longer. I

Austin Lugo: mean like all like the prison stuff with all the different people, like all the introductions

Andrew Harp: and stuff. Yeah. I just feel like we catch the guy a little too soon. I feel like they should have, uh, drawn it out a little bit more.

Yeah,

Austin Lugo: I agree. Although for me, I don't think it's so much the prison stuff. I feel it's more of. The heist itself, quote unquote, you know, the, the murder. It's kinda,

Andrew Harp: it's, it's kinda part of it. The prison stuff is kind of the part of it, you know, just kind of like her going back and forth, like helping the person and then their, and then them helping her in her aid to, in her aid plan.

Like, I don't know, maybe just more, just kind of like stuff like that, I guess, to kind of like show her plan a little bit more. Kind of see like more of like the architecture. You know, you get a lot of elements though I'm not, I'm not even necessarily complaining. It's just the movie's really good. I just feel like it almost like ends a little too soon.

Like, it just feels like there should be like, at least like, I don't know, maybe like 20 more minutes or something like that. It's not really a complaint. It, cuz you know, the movie's right under two hours, you know, it's a good length. It's just like, maybe there should just been like a little bit more going.

And like you said, like after the first hour of the movie, like they catch 'em and then there's that really long section of the movie where they basically just, they caught 'em and now they're gonna do their. Like their revenge. Their revenge. I love Korean movies because, uh, they always have a moment where they're just like, all right, here's the torture portion of the movie.

There's always a fucking torture portion of it.

Austin Lugo: Unbelievable. It's a pretty intense. Torture saying a lot of blood. And of course at this point, uh, one of the things they haven't mentioned yet is throughout the film it becomes more and more desaturated. Not that it's really ever that saturated, even at the beginning of the film, the colors are still a bit muted.

Even when we see like, you know, all the different Santa clauses and stuff like the reds aren't very red, but the farther we move into this movie, the more and more desaturated. And by pulling, we get to the torture scenes. I mean, it's almost a black and white film. It's pretty much a black and white movie.

Very desaturated. There's a couple of colors, like they'll bring in, you know, like the orange marble or anything they're trying to, you know, kind of point out. But by the second half of the film, it is extremely desaturated and. Kind of going back to a point you were, uh, talking about earlier, I do agree that the film misses out sort of on the plan aspect, just in the sense that, you know, the idea of having 13 years of having this plan and like all these different parts coming together and meeting all these different people.

Yeah.

Andrew Harp: Sometimes that's not translated well enough for me.

Austin Lugo: Yeah, it feels like it. It doesn't come to fruition or, or you know, that part where like she catches him and before the long torture scene. That part feels a little rushed to me. You know? Cause you have like the big part at the beginning where you're introduced to all these characters.

They all have their different unique talents. But then, you know, it kind of just all happens at once. Right. The actual kidnapping. Of our murderer. Just, I mean, it's like a flash in the pan. It's like a couple of minutes, and I, I do wish they would've pulled that scene out more, you know, to like 10 to 15 minutes where like, oh, you know, you gotta do this, you gotta this, and they're all coming together and that sort of thing.

I, I feel like. For a film that emphasizes so many, uh, helike aspects, I think that's, uh, that's something that's missing from this film.

Andrew Harp: Yeah, I think it still has all the beats though. I think it still has all the beats and I think they play out as well as, you know, they play out and uh, you know, I think they're still really good.

I think just kind of like looking at it as more just kind of like a revenge movie from this person who was completely just like a hollowed. Like I said, a husk of a person who is simply, um, focused on one thing and one thing only. But you know, they still have things about them too that are nice, like when they go visit their daughter.

That whole scene is really funny. And the daughter is, is kind of interesting where like she threatens to kill herself if she doesn't go to Korea. I I love that. I love that. Um, it's kind of preposterous just cuz like, I don't think. She like held the knife the entire time, like they're going on the airplane, but she like holds like the knife to her like neck and then like cuts to them and like, she's like on her like hands and knees.

It's pretty funny. You know,

Austin Lugo: when I said Wes Anderson, it's not so much in the visual aspects, it's more in the, uh, quirky, comedic aspects. It definitely, you know, darker than anything of Wes Anderson's taste, but moments like that. She goes to Australia and just meets like the two most Australian of human beings.

I mean, just the epitome of Australia, you know, those thick Australian accents. And of course they don't speak any Korean or Japanese or any other language than English. And meeting the daughter and that whole fight she has with her daughter when they're lying in bed and the daughter wants to go to Korea and they're just like yelling at each other, like to uh,

Andrew Harp: they can barely communicate with each other, the whole movie cuz you know, Neither of them speaks their languages.

Austin Lugo: Yeah. And that, that does seem to be almost a parallel to the experience that, uh, lady Vengeance herself is having with the rest of the characters or the world itself. Right. She feels as if she's completely out of place with the world, as if she doesn't belong with the world, as if she can't communicate with the world, you know, she's, uh, isolated in a certain sense.

And that's kind. Expressed through her daughter, right? Cause when her daughter goes to Korea, she doesn't know any of of the languages spoken in Korea. She doesn't know any of the people there. She feels very alone, very isolated. And that seems to be how our Lady Vengeance experiences pretty much her entire life.

Andrew Harp: This character's good. I like I, you know, the lead actor named uh, Lee Young. Who's really good. She's kind of, she's funny. She's, uh, she's, you know, she's beautiful. Yeah. It's just like, it's really, uh, you know, you're basically with her the whole time and, you know, you feel, uh, really bad for her. You want her to succeed.

You want her to get the guy and the guy, the film, the antagonist, of course, is built up to be a very bad person, as

Austin Lugo: we will see just an absolutely off a human being, but a great performance because there's something, uh, challenging in the role because there is a large. Subtlety to the whole thing because there's not a lot of, uh, expressions going on in her face, which seems very purposeful, you know, as if the world is happening to her.

And you'll have these like little moments, you know, where she kinda have like a half smile or like, you know, something will, will go her way. But I would say it, it's a very challenging thing to do well and very easily could have been overdone in a lot of different ways. But she, she pulls it. Incredibly well You mean

Andrew Harp: just like, just like the revenge aspect in general, like getting back kind of like,

Austin Lugo: yeah.

I mean her whole reaction to the world in which, uh, of course, you know, we watch her reenact the murder her. Performance whenever she is with the actual murderer herself. I, I think it's a very, you know, broad range of, of things and, and challenging things that she had to do because you have to, this simultaneously be like express anger and sadness and frustration.

Andrew Harp: She rocks. Yeah, I, I like that. Um, Cho means sick. The guy who plays, um, Mr. Beck, the Murderer, he's really good. He's a great actor. He's great, an old boy. He's great. And I saw The Devil, which is a very, very, very violent, um, Korean film that's very dramatic and violent. Um, he's really good in that movie. He's crazy.

Um, and this movie, he plays it a little bit more, um, low key. It's more low key performance from him. He doesn't. Except when he is getting like, beat up and stuff. Like, it doesn't really like have any like big reactions like maybe in other movies I've seen him in. But he is really fucking good and uh, and yeah, like I said, like that first hour is just like we talked about her and like, and like you said, you know, she kind of goes back and forth.

Like when she's in the prison, she's super nice to everyone, right? And then when she's out, she doesn't have to be like super nice to them anymore because they owe her a favor anyway. Yeah.

Austin Lugo: Seems to be entirely consumed by this one act. And so all of these little acts of kindness that she does, which mostly seem to be at the destruction of our, perhaps a prison antagonist, just this awful human being who, uh, eats her.

Her husband and child, I believe is, is why she's a person.

Andrew Harp: No, her husband and

Austin Lugo: mistress. Husband and mistress. That's right. Of course, and is just like, just a terrible person to all of the other inmates. Like really? Uh, yeah. She's like

Andrew Harp: a rapist and Yeah. And tortures them.

Austin Lugo: Yeah. And enforces, uh, sexual favors on.

Which there is a bit of crass moments. I would not say sexual moments because there's no, uh, there's no sexy moments in this film. But there are moments where, uh, sex takes place and they are all very tastefully done. They're very tasteful. You really never see any nudity in this film, uh, despite the violence and intenseness of the entire film.

But you should watch hand. Isn't, isn't there, isn't that extremely like Yeah.

Andrew Harp: All these mo, all these movies have a lot of sex in them. , they just do like these chain movies have a lot of sex in them.

Austin Lugo: I'm okay with that. I, I mean, you know, and the sex never feels gratuitous in the film. I mean, you know, the scenes feel.

Yeah, it's pretty lowkey here. And gross in a way that they should be. It never feels predatory and in any way. They all seem to be, uh, for the specific purpose of moving the film forward, even though the scenes themselves kind of ick you out.

Andrew Harp: the movie's really funny too, I think. I think, you know, humor plays a part.

I laugh her pretty hard when, um, you know, you were mentioning the, the, uh, the, the inmate that everyone doesn't like, who's just kind of like a. How she's like feeding her bleach over the course of like, several years to poison her. And I love when she's like feeding her and they're, and they're like talking and stuff and she's just like, fuck it.

She's just like, it just pours a bunch of bleach on top of her food, like right in front of her. She's just like, fuck you. Like, that is such a funny, uh, moment. There are plenty of like, funny stuff like that in the movie, even though the movie does get pretty, uh, you know, as it's high highs and low lows.

Yeah.

Austin Lugo: Comedic scenes are hilarious, but simultaneously I felt almost uncomfortable laughing because the subject matter is so intense because there are so many dark moments in this film. I mean, there. Very comedic moments, and I very much enjoy the moments, but there's something almost, I don't know, awkward almost about, about the situation, you know, as if you almost feel guilty about laughing because , there's so many, uh, fucked up moments in this, you know, the, the comedic moments kind of jump out at you a little bit, kind of in the, in a similar way that they did in the last film we watched.

Although I would argue this, this is funnier than the last film we watched. What was the last film we watched? . I already forgot. I, I keep saying the last film we watched, cause I cannot remember the name of it. I'm gonna look it up right here because it

Andrew Harp: was a movie you and I hadn't watched before. Yes.

We're terrible. Oh, fireworks. Yeah. Fireworks, huh? Yeah. . I love that movie. Yeah,

Austin Lugo: it was a great movie. .

Andrew Harp: Yeah. And, uh, I don't know. It's, it's, it's a classy movie. You know, Lee Evens a classy ass movie, you know? And, and, and you know, once again, uh, you have like the daughter and the daughter's an interesting aspect.

I like that scene where they're laying in bed and the daughter for some reason sees the ghost of the boy that got killed. Yeah. Do you remember that? Yeah. That's like the most, that's like the scariest scene in the whole movie. It's

Austin Lugo: a very surreal moment, and I'm not exactly. Sure. The context of, I mean, I guess I understand the context of that.

I, maybe I'm just confused of how she sees the little boy or why she sees, I

Andrew Harp: guess it doesn't, I guess it doesn't matter why. I mean, it, it doesn't really, yeah. Or like, or how, you know, like how she's able to, but. It's, uh, perhaps

Austin Lugo: it's like something to do with like, she can sense her mother's guilt or I don't know, something about, you know, this, uh, intuition of sorts cuz like the daughter, uh, can be kind of a dick sometimes.

She's.

Andrew Harp: She's a little girl. . Well,

Austin Lugo: I'm just saying like, yeah, she's pretty pissed at her mom for like abandoning her. Right, right. Yeah. But like again, it's not the mom's fault. Well, okay. The mom did kidnap that boy and, and was part of the murder of little boy, but to save the little girl's life. So I think the little girl should be a little more, I mean, I guess.

Andrew Harp: She doesn't understand and completely, and once again, there's like the language, uh, barrier that's kind of hard to overcome. Yeah. That's a big part of the movie for sure. Just kind of like, yeah, like the daughter and her being reacquainted with her mom. I think all that stuff is really well done. Um, and it's fun to watch.

Um, and just kind of, yeah, like the mother daughter thing going on is very, Maybe it's just kind of like maybe the relationship between like the little boy and lady vengeance, you know, they kind of have like a, it's almost kind of like a, a a, a mother do, a mother son kind of relationship, even though it's not her son.

She doesn't have a relationship with him, but it's like, it's a relationship that's kind of similar, right? That's kind of like gone wrong or has like gone off the rails and, you know, created a horrible situation. and so it's kind of, I don't know, maybe infecting also her daughter who's also implicated in that situation as well, which by the way, the movie is narrated by what appears to be a grown up.

Voice of the daughter. It

Austin Lugo: does seem as if the, I guess it's almost like a life for a life kind of thing. Like the daughter can only live right if the boy died and the boy could only live if the girl died. So perhaps that has something to do with the seeing of the ghost. There's this kind of weird connection between these two characters, even though they never meet each other, it's, uh, you know, only one of the two can survive.

I, I love. Uh, seen shortly after, uh, he's kidnapped when for some reason she decides to bring her daughter to, uh, the warehouse or wherever it looks like an abandoned school. Yeah, I think you're right. It's like an abandoned elementary school

Andrew Harp: almost. I think they're like staking I think in that scene.

They're like staking it out, so they're like checking it out .

Austin Lugo: But she has this man translate, uh, into English. It's the murder. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah,

Andrew Harp: guy. It's a very strange moment. Yeah, it's a pretty sad scene.

Austin Lugo: It's a pretty intense scene, and I love the way they kind of fade into, uh, like they basically put a spotlight on the mother and then, uh, they like fade into the daughter as if they're like standing right next to each other and they have a spotlight on her face too.

Having this conversation, which is being translated by the murderer, which I spo I guess you could argue is like a sort of fatherly figure. In the sense that he's the reason that the daughter's still alive in a weird way. And so there's this weird dynamic between the three of them. Something I, I never.

Quite understood is who, and maybe this just doesn't matter, but who was the father? I

Andrew Harp: don't think it, maybe it is the guy. I guess I never really figured that either. It's definitely a teaser because you have that scene where she's in the aquarium and she calls up someone, right? And she tells the guy that like, um, she tells like the, the teacher that he got her pregnant basically.

Um, and that if she can live with him. I don't know though if that's, Supposed to be the same guy though, but I think, I think maybe he is. I don't know. I think

Austin Lugo: you're right. And, and thinking of that scene, uh, that scene has very similar, like a visual connotation and I'm not sure why I thought of this, of the graduate.

It's kind of just like a blown up version of it. You know what I'm talking about? That scene where, because Right. Cuz it's like, it's like a close up of like a, a fucking, like a, what are they call scuba dive. And like in a, a giant aquarium and it like pulls back and like she's sitting in front of it. It's, it's like a blown up version of that scene in the graduate.

I don't know, it probably wasn't on purpose. Um, but it is a weird. Very specific parallel between the two films. . Yeah.

Andrew Harp: I like, I like all the little, like we, like we talked about, I like all the little like bits that are very strange kind of dreamlike sequences and you know, that happen for like a second.

And I think all that stuff is done, uh uh as well. Pretty well. It's a, it's a, it's always surprising when it, when it happens, but it's always a, I think, a welcome, uh, inclusion into the mix. There's something,

Austin Lugo: you know, we, we talked about some of the fantastical elements of this film, and of course it's a fantastical situation, but there's something dreamlike, nightmarish, I guess you could say about this film, uh, especially in just the filmmaking itself.

There's something very creative, very imaginative, but it doesn. Flow the way necessarily, you know, a classic noir vengeance film should, not so much in storytelling. I mean, you know, storytelling is very much that, but just, uh, in the visuals there's something demented almost about this film and, and the way people kind of talk to each other and, and move around it.

It feels very, And, you

Andrew Harp: know, like you te like we mentioned, you know, she goes to the abandoned school. There's that whole scene that is pretty, you know, it's pretty exciting, you know, there for a second where like the murderer realizes that her, his wife or girlfriend, whoever is working with uh, Lee. And so she like, he like ties her up and beats her up and, but then he ends up poisoning himself anyway.

But then he also sends a couple different people, uh, those dudes to go in also kill, um, Lee. And get the kid as well. And they have like this scuffle where, you know, she gets like really beaten up but then she shoots both of them in the head and she's able to get away. Total badass. Yeah. She's a badass as fuck.

And so they were able to get her and they able to get Mr. Beck. Um, I'm not sure if I'm saying that right, but Yeah. And they, uh, take him to the school. Because he is a teacher. He is like a, you know, I guess like the, like an

Austin Lugo: elementary school teacher? Yeah,

Andrew Harp: probably. Yeah. Like a little like preschool teacher.

Honestly. Awful .

Austin Lugo: You see that one scene early on where he is like, uh, you don't really see the children, but he's like, I don't know, running some lesson. And he seems like this just happy go lucky. And I think that juxtapose right after with the scene where he, uh, rapes that lady. Uh, I think those scenes.

Back

Andrew Harp: to that They're like near each other. Yeah. And, and it's basically they, as they reveal what he does is that he goes to his schools. He works, he's a teacher. He goes and works at schools. He then a kid naps a kid. That would be unlikely for him to kidnap, right? Not

Austin Lugo: someone

Andrew Harp: in his class. He, he murders the kid right away.

And then he asks for ransom and as they say, later in the movie, and it's, it's sad, but you know, the, it's comedic timing where. She says that like, yeah, he was saving for a yacht. Like, you know, you can't but laugh.

Austin Lugo: The moment points out when he is saving for the yacht, just how pointless the whole thing is.

Like there's no real gratification in his murders. Like he's not doing it out of some sort of like, Fetish, really? Or it's just, it's just really outta greed. Yeah. It's just like he just wants money and he's just gonna like kill these kids. Like there's no, like it's almost as if like if he had some like sort of weird fetish for it, or maybe because

Andrew Harp: the fact that he filmed it is like a little weird.

So maybe he gets like, I think he probably gets some satisfaction out of it. But the last 30 minutes of the movie are kind of weird. It's, it's almost like its own like film in general. Cause at this point, like the movie's completely in black and white. And what Lee basically does is that she gets all of the parents and family members of the kids who were murdered by him, which is like four of them poor kids.

And she shows them the tapes of him murdering their children.

Austin Lugo: Pretty fucked up. Just one after the other. Just like,

Andrew Harp: okay. Yeah. Which is, you know, pretty upsetting. And then they have like this discussion for a while about what they should do to him. It's

Austin Lugo: interesting because she's already told the detective that, look, he had kidnapped multiple kids, killed multiple kids, and she basically implies that like, She has him, right?

Like she is holding him hostage somewhere and the detective doesn't know where, but she's like, I'm gonna do whatever the fuck I want. There's not really anything you can do to stop me. And you know, all the parents are there and you know, of course they're, they're fainting and disturbed and shit because, They just watched their kids be brutally murdered in front of them and just like back to back.

Just absolutely awful.

Andrew Harp: It's par for the course.

Austin Lugo: It's, I think it's probably the most intense scene in the film, at least for me. It's very hard scene to watch. It's, ugh, it's awful. It's just, it's a really fucking awful scene.

Andrew Harp: I, I like too, they kind of have, like, I do like the discussion afterwards though, because they do kind of go through this, uh, like process of like figuring out what they really should do with them.

Cause they could take him to the police, but they pretty much like throw the option away because they don't like, wanna go to the police, you know, like they, because then there'll be like a trial or whatever and it'll be annoying. So they just kind of wanna like, do whatever they want to. And you know, they, they, they go in one at a time.

Some of them go in like four at a time and they just like, they have like their knives and stuff and I think they just slice 'em up or fuck 'em up and which, you know, I guess if I was in that situation, I would probably feel the same way. So I can't really like judge or anything, but even, but even like one of the characters is like, this isn't gonna bring our, like our son back.

Is it? You know, if we like fuck this guy up, but they do it anyway because I mean, the guy does deserve it. The murderer.

Austin Lugo: I mean, you know, if anyone's ever deserved anything, this murderer definitely. Deserves this. But then of course, you see in the moment, even, you know, as they're doing it, as we, we keep hearkening to, there's very little satisfaction brought by this vengeance.

You know, even at this moment where they are stabbing this man to death, you know, slicing him up, torturing this person. There's very little satisfaction and, and even in our. Few scenes after they, they bury the man and they're all sitting around at that table. None of them seem fulfilled at all or as.

They've done anything worth doing. Like they're kind of as, uh, pointed out, their children are still dead. Like nothing's really changed. There's just, I mean, I guess it's good that there's one less murderer in the world, you know, not going around murdering children, but it's,

Andrew Harp: it's more of a service and less of a cathartic moment, I guess.

Yeah. Yeah. And like, and like we said, the movie gets more and more desaturated and it pretty much continues to become desaturated as the movie progresses. It gets, you know, more and more black and white and they all get their, you know, little like, uh, charms and stuff because the murder takes like little items from the kids and puts 'em on his phone as charms and stuff.

Um, and they all get those back and they also get back their money too, which is funny. That scene

Austin Lugo: at the diner. Wherever they are. It It's the bakery. It's the bakery. It's the bakery. Yeah, you're right. And they're kind of talking about what's just gone down and then one of them just like writes down their account number.

It's a pretty awful moment. Watching these people just be like, Okay, now we want our money back. Now

Andrew Harp: we want our money back. Yeah. Yeah. I guess it makes sense. I guess like, you know, if you can get your money back, that's fine. And the women are, that woman earlier complains about the fact that like, you know, they're poor, they really don't have a lot of money, so things are tight.

So it's like they had to like scrounge money together to get the fucking ransome to get their kid, and then they don't even get their kid back. You know, it. It sucks, but yeah, it is kind of like a moment where it's like, ooh, you know, it's like money. Just kinda like cheapens things, I think in a way. But it's not that, and no one feels bad for their kids.

They're obviously all extremely upset. .

Austin Lugo: Yeah. It's not like, uh, they're, they're just in it for the money. Right. No one's there to be like, Hey, we're, we're here to, to get our money back. I mean, they're obviously all extremely upset and expressed that in their, uh, individual tortures. It does create an even darker note, this already extremely dark film where, you know, even after all of this, they feel like this, you know, amount of money is gonna bring Sola stuff.

I mean, I guess, you know, the money's there might as well get it back. But still the, there's no solace and it, and it's simultaneously suppressing and, and comedic. Right. Just brilliant comedic timing.

Andrew Harp: Yeah, there's good timing in here. Like we talked about. It's a pretty, um, you know, has, its high and its lows and, uh, yeah, when they kill the guy and they fuck him up and, you know, it probably feels good in the moment to them.

But yeah, I, I get to, you know, the clean up and, and just, I don't know that whole, the whole portion of the movie I think is really well done. It's really the only linear part of the movie where it's just kind of like, it doesn't have any divergences. It doesn't diverge from what's going on. It just kind of like just, it's just a linear path through this section where you have these people figuring out what to do with this guy with a murderer and then them doing it, and then the aftermath of it and, and then you basically get the ending of the movie as well.

Yeah,

Austin Lugo: I think it's probably the strongest part of the film, you know, because you're just forced to sit with these characters as they overcome perhaps one of the. Intense moments of their lives and watching them brutally torture this man, which he deserves. But again, there's very little satisfaction in it, even as a viewer, right?

You don't feel like, ah, they got him. You know? There is this emptiness behind it.

Andrew Harp: Yeah. There's like no, like, yep, we did it. Everybody, you know, we, we got. And then of course, you know, they, they leave, you know, all the parents and stuff, and then you have like Lee and she is just, you know, she's once again like unchanged.

Um, you know, she kind of like, she leaves the bakery and she's followed by like the um, The guy from the bakery who she works with, who she has sex with earlier in the movie, and he's like very different from basically everyone else in the movie, in that he is a kind of like unchanged kind of neutral point, almost.

Like he's not really like sad. At all. He's not, he's just kind of like a young, dumb guy. So he's kind of like a weird, kind of like, I don't know, different person compared to everybody else who's like extremely miserable or stuff like, or who had been to prison. You know, he just works at a bakery and is just chilling and hanging out.

He almost kind of almost, I don't know, represents some kind of like, I don't know, carefreeness or kind of maybe some like aloofness or something like, And, and, and you have that point too where like that other, one of the super great parts where she's in the bathroom and she sees the she, that's when she sees the ghost of the dead kid, which I think is in color.

Sure.

Austin Lugo: I can actually go back to, I'm watching it right now. I think. I believe you're right. I'm gonna scroll back. No, no. It's not in color. No. Although the, I thought it was in color. You do. Well you do see the orange mar.

Andrew Harp: Right. The mar. Yeah. Yeah. There's some mar.

Austin Lugo: Yeah. But that is, uh, one of the great cuts of the film, right?

She knees down next to the boy, you see the orange marble. She puts the orange marble in her mouth, and then. Cut two. Right. The grown man, and she has the, uh, gag in her mouth. It's, it's an intense moment.

Andrew Harp: Yeah. And then, and then, yeah, she's like, he's like grown up too, and yeah, he's just suddenly grown up.

That's very strange. It's kinda hard to decipher what's going on there, but I don't know. I don't think there's anything worth deciphering. It's just kind of like a good moment. Yeah. I don't know

Austin Lugo: about the, the boy in the bakery. There's a sense. Naive TA about him. I guess just like an

Andrew Harp: aloof guy, kind of.

He's nice. He's not, he's not a bad person, but nothing bad has really happened to him as far as we know. .

Austin Lugo: Yeah. Which kind of makes you wonder, you know, when we talk about the themes of this film, humans in this film almost seem like, uh, blank canvases or, you know, like, The tofu, right? As we see in the beginning of the film and our character it suggested is merely the things that happen to us and our reactions to them and, you know, has very little to do with like choice or free will, but rather that like, you know, we just ex the world just kind of happens to us and, and whatever the things happen to us, like that's how we kind of bill ourself our character or.

Who we are, I suppose,

Andrew Harp: you know, and like speaking of tofu, the ending kind of mirrors the beginning where she sees her daughter for the last time and she gives her like a big white cake, which looks like a really big, like, um, like block of tofu and it's like snowing outside. And she kind of tells her like, you should be pure, you know, just kind of saying like, you know, don't do bad things like me, like, don't make, don't make any fucking crazy ass mistakes like I did and I'm not your mother.

You know? I think it's clear that she's gonna go back to. To her, you know, a real family in Australia. And, but you know, she kind of sends along a message real quick, like, you know, my life is pretty much over. Um, but your life is just beginning so you know, do the right thing.

Austin Lugo: It's a very strange final scene cuz it's just the boy in the bakery, the daughter and the mother, and she gives the daughter the cake and then the.

Stuffs her face into the

Andrew Harp: cake. She kind of like, yeah, like smashes it in her face. I think also, like, you know, like I said, she's her, she's kind of almost communicating that her life is done. She, the one person that she kind of like, I don't know, has sex with, you know what I mean? Like the one person that she like has a relationship with is like the bakery boy guy.

And he's like kind of like aloof, you know what I mean? It's not really like, it's not really someone she loves or has a relationship with, even though he had sex with him. So he kind of, I don't know, represents like, I don't know, like it's just kind of like, that's like her friend, you know? And it's like not much, I guess is what the movie, the movie is trying to communicate.

Even though he's like, there's nothing really wrong with him in particular. He's just kind of like a young, aloof guy, not a happy. Yeah, it doesn't really end in a really nice, happy way. Uh, you get like the narration from the daughter who's just like, yeah, I'll never forget, you know, my mom or whatever the fuck she says.

Austin Lugo: She says, uh, she says, farewell Miss. And she says, uh, I can't pronounce her name. Oh. Just like, you

Andrew Harp: know the name of the Yeah, name of the,

Austin Lugo: yeah, the name of the character. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's interesting that even at the final moment, she doesn't refer to her.

Andrew Harp: Her mom because she thinks, uh, because isn't because she thinks that that's the word for mother.

Yeah,

Austin Lugo: you're right. Yep, yep, yep. You're. It's a good, good point, Andrew. Well, well seen. I, I forgot about that cause right in the middle of the film she asked what the word for mother is or I guess it's pretty early on in the film when she's in Australia

Andrew Harp: and she just says her name. She doesn't say and I think like, yeah, but I guess it's kind of interesting too, the narration cuz she's clearly grown up so she probably knows like the difference now, like the actual word for mother.

But she still refers to her as that almost like an affectionate name. I think she said mother, it wouldn't be as affectionate as if she said, The name that she had would was calling her from the beginning. Yeah, no, absolutely. Yeah. This movie, it's, yo, this movie's good. You know, it's got, you know, it's got, it's good.

Good. It's a good written movie. I think. , I think it's a, it's, it's, uh, it's good. Yeah. I

Austin Lugo: was, Very impressed by this film from, I mean, from the very opening scenes, you can always, I think you always tell, you know, by, by the time you're like five minutes in the film, you're like, yeah, if it's gonna be a good film or not.

And you definitely knew this film was gonna be a good film and, and that's exactly what it was.

Andrew Harp: You bet. It's fucking awesome. All right, you conclude Austin. All

Austin Lugo: right, I will, I will start our conclusions. Very much enjoyed this film. I think the editing is spectacular. I think the storytelling is incredible.

I think there are some wonderful performances, some great music, uh, visually stunning. My only real complaints with the film. Which aren't even really complaints is, it is a pretty depressing film. There's, there's not a lot of happiness going on in this film, so it's not gonna put you in the best of mood for sure.

But it is a great experience worth having. And you know, that's why we make movies is for these types of experiences. So I'm going to give it a very strong. Eight outta 10.

Andrew Harp: I'll give it an eight outta 10 as well. I'm more less strong though. I think it's more like a, a strong seven to a light eight to use the Anthony Fantano rating system.

I guess it's a good movie. It's, uh, I don't think I liked it as much as I watched it the first time, but you know, when I'm watching it. I'm like, man, you know, this is exciting. It's got good twists and turns as really good acting has good music. It has really weird moments, has funny moments. It just kind of has everything you would want, kind of like in a really dramatic over the top Korean movie like this one, it's violent, has its cathartic moments.

It has this like really like sad, depressing moments. It has very, has a great open ended ending. I don't know, it just kind of has like all the different elements you would expect from like a par chain movie or a Korean film of this kind of, you know, So, yeah, I still, I still really like it. Maybe I'm not, it's hard for me to say that I love it, but I think at the end of the day, I do really love it.

It's a good movie.

Austin Lugo: All right y'all, thank you for listening. You can find everything I do at Austin Logo one two, find me on

Andrew Harp: Twitter at ad harp 24. I'm also on letter box, uh, retro Ranger RT zero Andrew, and

Austin Lugo: you can find everything we do on Instagram, TikTok, and of course podcasts of all Kind at with nothing to say or Theater 42.

And thank you all for listen. Thank you again.